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From: [e-mail]
Subject: MS-DOS Kermit, more capabalities
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:24:16 GMT
Organization: Sympatico
To: [e-mail]

Hi everybody,   (303 lines:  stirr up some beverage before you proceed!)

FDC> ...you can now pick up the source files for MS-DOS Kermit in
FDC> convenient ZIP'd format at:  .../kermit/msk315src.zip

Good!  I believe i should thank the one who's at the origin of this fine
recent development!!!  I'm sure there's a guy who now finds some relief,
out there, somewhere in Michigan...  Thanks!  ;-)  I'm just a bit sorry
it doesn't solve problems because of it's sole presence.  Hummm...  But
i did get it, sure!  Only, it was in a slightly different location:

ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/archives/msk315src.zip

At least, i can augment my little archive museum now...  %-)

I mean, nobody here should be alarmed since we haven't seen a programmer
yet who stated he'd take a dip at it - right thru...  %-o  Much less was
i successfull at learning the required programming skills myself, over
night!  - and there's no chance that i can "abuse" any time soon, that's
for sure...  heck, i don't even have the programmer's tools, anyway!...

Euh...  I do thank the ~FTP~ site maintainer but more specially i'd like
to thank you, Charles, because your insistance is what made things move!

8-)

Maybe i can't have hope for a `Kermit' `ZMoDem' addition anytime soon
but a door just opened;  who kows, something might happen before two or
three years have past!...  P-)  Keep up the good work!  Ha!  Ha!  8-D)',

[...]

FDC> There are real people at work here.

Well, well...  I'd say the latest posting ignited some reactions lately!
That's quite puzzling since i tried to make sure (from the start) that i
left no chance for confusion to take place:  indeed, i wrote "MS-Kermit"
so often that one can wonder about the number of times members from the
other `Kermit' teams forgot that i never ever addressed them at all!  :(

Of course, as i've stated before, there are quick/short passages which i
find to be *KNOWLEDGEABLE*, *HELPING*, *COOPERATIVE* - MY *MAGIC WORDS*!
Only, i also stated it previously, i'm sorry to write that i observe the
following again:  there's a price to pay for he who happens to be lucky
enough to get any of those thoughtfull hints!  And what high price would
that be, precisely?...  8-o  Well, most often, it takes form in comments
which aren't really about my topics...  There's been a lot of wandering
that's hardly relevant to anything but to each other's perceptions...  I
still am of the opinion that i don't see the point of someone who wants
to argue when that same person made it quite clear that there's nothing
to be said that is relevant to the original topic!...  I'm sorry...  i'm
given no choice but to insist once more:  i'm now experimenting with the
`MS-DOS' version of `Kermit v3.16 Beta'.  I'm a DOS_InterNet user, which
means i've been accessing the Net with DOS programs for some time now...

MY *MAGIC WORD* here is *RESPECT*.  I like to play nice but all i ask is
for correspondants to RESPECT the terms i've clearly established as the
set of topics into which i'm willing to engage some of *MY* time;  then,
i'll be more than willing to pay them back with the same RESPECT too.

You who want to discuss `Win 3.1x/9x' or `Linux', please forget i exist!
When you see that i ask for help keep in mind i meant help, not mockery.
I've seen better manifestations of "politeness" and "carefullness" in my
life:  some guys sure don't need shocking words for the opposite effect!
A person to who i must repeat that i'm no programmer and who would keep
suggesting that i should do things myself is making mockery of me, IMHO!

%-7

I'M FORCING NO ONE TO REPLY.  Only, i DEMAND that he who chooses to send
me a reply will be respectfull enough not to overlook the context which
i *DID* take care to define.  I'm aware of the alternative platforms but
I'M NOT INTERRESTED;  actually, i perceive those comments about `Win 9x"
and others as being a pure futile annoying act and i despise anyone who
chooses not to RESPECT my most basic request, REPEATEDLY...  Should i've
been mistaking about this ~NG~'s nature, please let me know;  but if the
`MS-Kermit v3.16 Beta' team has elected home in here too then just don't
waste my time!  8-7  Cool off and let the `MS-DOS' and `?-Kermit' topics
co-exist!!!  I've just learned that there still is - at least - 1 member
left around:  MAYBE that somebody DOES happen to mind and he's the one i
wish to address, primarily...  I shall welcome those who are offering me
their helping hand and - please - just consider that i'm aware each of
us here is busy with his own life.  8-o  My sole interrest isn't to make
ennemies but to get some advise;  only, don't expect me to welcome those
who believe they can direct me on what i should _like_ or not, on what i
should _have_ or not!!!  At the origin, i used a somewhat *neutral* tone
to convey my topic;  i can understand that some established readers are
under the impression they earned the right to demonstrate their FEELINGS
but, frankly put, we'd be better if we could just keep short with each
other's self-JUSTIFICATIONS - my postings would only be a bit lighter!!!

One of the late replies shows me that i'm thought to be a self-centered
kind of person.  Well, should this ~NG~'s line of topic have been about
self-JUSTIFICATIONS, i'd have this comment more than ready to serve all
right:  that's sort of a precipitated conclusion when one considers that
it came after such a short time (and so few of my postings...), already!

[...]

I repeat, here's the  *  M I N I M U M   S E T U P  *  on which i insist
i must be able to experiment with `MS-Kermit v3.16 Beta'.  MY MOTIVE IS
NOT THE TOPIC at all, i currently conduct my preliminary tests on higher
machines but i'm not willing to discuss and/or justify those choices...
The target *IS* attainable (and i DO have some good hint that it *IS*!):

- 8088 4,77 Mhz ~CPU~
- 640 Kb ~RAM~ memory (512 Kb if possible!)
- No Hard-Disk
- Two 5.25"/360 Kb diskette drives or a single 3.5"/720 Kb unit
- A crude 8250 ~UART~ serial-port
- A V.42Bis MoDem or better (i tied up an external 56K MoDem to a 8088!)
- DOS v3.3 (v3.0 compatibility would be fine but not required)

To _upgrade_ the hardware or to _switch_ to protocols like ~FTP~/~HTTP~
* I  S   N  O  T *   a n   o p t i o n .  I repeat:  NOT   AN   OPTION.

I've been told that good used "modern" PCs aren't that expensive;  well,
those who'd prove to have some problems reading THAT must know there has
been 2-for-1 ocular glass discounts everywhere for some time now...  The
only kind of prothesis apparatus that i bet they haven't invented yet is
one for correcting an obtuse mind!  Ouch!  I'm sure that's the one part
which will be retained the most - right there!...  %-o  Euh...  Anyway.

I'm already able of using `MS-Kermit v3.16 Beta' on such limited setup
and *THIS* post DID come to you with the help of nothing else but my set
of `Kermit' macros.  So, i'm afraid the "No can do" reply doesn't apply!

I'm quite confident a `ZMoDem' routine wouldn't be that different from a
`Kermit' one;  i can't do anything about it but i can hope.  After all,
i just learned - two weeks and a few "warming" comments ago - that the
`ZMoDem' code from the `Win 9x' version of `Kermit' has been donated by
a "contributor" indeed.  OKay, maybe there's no point in trying to learn
the name of that guy so that we can ask HIM wether or not *HE* would be
willing to give permission that his code be ported to the `DOS' version.
Sheesh!  Why wasn't this mentioned before?!...  %-7  Hummm...  Anyway, i
know that there's a couple * P U B L I C   D O M A I N *  `ZMoDem' file
transfer protocols on the Net - isn't THAT good enough?!?  Look at that:

ftp://pcmicro.com/file_transfer_protocols/

`MPMoD160.ZIP' is from 1994 but it's claimed not to use any part of mr.
Forsberg's code and the source-code was free (back then).  `PDZM126.ZIP'
is one more "Public Domain" program, i'd be curious to see if the author
would agree to see his creation being integrated into `Kermit' or not...

Etc., etc...  8-)

As i wrote previously, `MS-Kermit v3.16' outperforms practically any of
the DOS ~BIOS INT-14~ and/or ~FOSSIL~-capable terminal emulators i could
find.  Meaning:  i had to try the DOS ~BIOS INT-14~/~FOSSIL~ alternative
hoping i could "share" the ~TelNet~ connection with an external `ZMoDem'
protocol...  What it also means is that THERE ALREADY IS a number of DOS
programs which *DO* allow a user to "share" the ~TelNet~ session between
various programs (of course, i discussed that in a previous statement!):

MS> "I tried all these ~TelNet~ "shims" so far:  `INT14', `Net14',
MS> `TCPPort', `TelAPI', `TNGlass' (`RLFossil' too...

The problem with those is that the apparent D/L rate seems to be limited
to that of a slow 9k6 bps link, i give credit to the INTEGRATED `Kermit'
packet-driver interface AND ~TelNet~ protocol for the tremendous boost i
observe when i DownLoad using the same-name file transfer protocol and a
direct packet-driver interface.  I'm having peeks at 4K cps on my 386, i
bet `ZmoDem' would triple its actual performance in good conditions!  An
emphasis has been put on to the fact that this is THE `Kermit' project;
well, i submit that `Kermit' isn't just a file transfer protocol but it
also happens to be a TERMINAL EMULATOR and the primary function of such
a piece of software is for CONNECTING to remote systems, BBSes included.
And what protocol is being actually used by most BBSes in existance when
a user CONNECTS and needs to D/L, hummm?  Certainly not `Kermit'!...  :(

Charles Angelich's suggestion that `Kermit' might be made to "share" the
internal stack/~TelNet~ stuff with an external (`ZMoDem') protocol seems
quite sound to me.  If `INT14', `Net14', `TCPPort', `TelAPI', `TNGlass',
`RLFossil' and any other ~TelNet~ "shim" can do it, why not `Kermit'?!!!

For those who would still wonder about what those exotic utilities are,
here's how you can think of them:  those are executables which interface
to a stack/packet-driver on one side and provide a ~TelNet~ client via a
~BIOS INT-14~ and/or ~FOSSIL~ serial-port interface on the other side...
Terminal emulator programs equiped with a ~BIOS INT-14~, a ~FOSSIL~ or a
~NASI~ interface can take advantage of such utilities and then become a
~TelNet~ client themselves.  Should `Kermit' do the same, it would open
a door on a range of possibilities for external protocols like `ZMoDem';
WITHOUT THE MAINTAINERS EVER HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT COPYRIGHTED CODE...

A number of ~FOSSIL~-capable external protocols already exist and they
ARE at use on numerous BBSes, here and there, around the globe!...  If a
PUBLIC DOMAIN protocol can't be added then i will submit that a ~FOSSIL~
interface may be a good start for getting nearer to a working solution.

It is widely accepted that the speed of a ~FOSSIL~ port can attain 38K4
bps (it too uses the ~INT-14~ vector, if i'm not wrong) and the limit i
seem to get on `X00'/`ADF' is 115K2 bps (on serial-port ~UART~ devices).
At 38K4 bps, the improvement would be noticeable already;  that would be
better than 9K6 bps but there is more...  I think it would be convenient
to have two modern/efficient file transfer protocols in the same program
instead of being forced to play acrobat between the applications...  8-o
It's been written before, too few implementions of the `Kermit' protocol
into other packages proved to be satisfying in the past.

To me, `MS-Kermit' is a program which came to a point where you can say
that it reached some "maturity" and it would simply be a shame that it
shall end its life in an "unfinished" state (i'm only suggesting here)!

Charles can't be more right when he points out to the fact that the DOS
users are facing an *IMMENSE VOID* when it comes to finding any ~TelNet~
client that would allow for `ZMoDem' file transfers.  The `Win 3.1x/9x'
users have PLENTY of these;  that's probably the case of other platforms
too.  The *ONE* place where the `MS-Kermit' terminal emulator would have
a chance of really being unparalled is DOS, the assumption that `ZMoDem'
is some MINOR file transfer protocol is quite astonishing, especially if
a user happens to access BBSes, like i do...  Anyway, why should almost
any new communications program be practically REQUIRED to offer `ZMoDem'
if it were so "marginal" in use?!  Heck!  `Win 9x Kermit' has it!!!  %-o

Honestly, nobody can disregard the fact that systems like `Windows' are
only precipitating the sequence of events and a good deal of the latest
posts just tells me that it's now urgent for `MS-Kermit' to get as good
as it can, before it dies out...  Three or four years after that, it may
be way too late to think about it;  it's not rare to see still usefull
programs in a state of abandon when such program might remain in service
for a little while longer...  that's most regrettable, IMHO.  :(

[...]

About the ~IP~ port #25 topic, i just learned about the absolute "No-Go"
which strikes anyone who would see in `MS-Kermit' a tiny ~SMTP~ client.
I do have ~E-Mail~ programs, thank you...  but getting this function via
the *PRE-EXISTING* main application would make much more sense, really!
What can i say but that i deeply regret this bizarre choice!!!  :-o

The idea that "spammers" are the kind of people who would be willing to
face the trouble of using a DOS environment, for the sake of their kind
of activitie$, seems a bit unbelievable!...  I bet they must be the kind
of people who would be amongst the most allergic of all to any technical
topic (in their eyes, using DOS probably supposes a good deal of that!),
euh...  I be damned if they're not the kind of people who are the least
capable of resisting to the on-going `Windows'/`Linux' frenzies!...  Who
decided that `MS-Kermit' must have ~IP~ port #25 locked, especially when
i'm told that most users supposedly have moved to other platforms?!  I'm
tempted to question it but that's going to be a pure waste of my time so
i guess i won't be pursueing this much further...  Anyway, it appears i
may be an ~E-Mail~ "spoofer", after all!  I DID try to be a nice guy by
asking how i can publish my address and still keep safe but to no end...
Put more clearly:  i still am unsure if i can put an "anti-spam" address
in the header's related field *WITHOUT CAUSING ANY TROUBLE* (but i began
to think that anything goes, apparently)!  Euh...  What's the safest way
to proceed when composing such "anti-spam" addresses, so that i can add
this to my on-line ~NG~ reading/posting macros, eventually?  :^o

[...]

Finally, about my `Kermit' scripts for reading/posting in ~NG~s...  No,
`Kermit' doesn't seem to see much difference between a data-file and one
of its command/script/macro/take files...  Yes indeed, i sure thought of
the "Transmit" function and i tried it, of course...  Thanks anyway.  At
this time, the only thing i can still hope for is a remedy that will let
me press the ~NG~ [-]/[+] reader keys without being dumped to `Kermit's
command-line, after every dozen messages or so!  I'm very surprized that
the script/macro language has been made so rich (relatively) if it's not
to be used in anything else but a dull simple dialing script!  I thought
i was using the language just the way it was designed for, maybe there's
tens of Kilo-bytes of code lying there that would be better if spared...

%-o

Hummm...  But Charles maybe right, maybe i'm just not `worthy', because
of my insistance for running this on some hardware that i want to be the
earliest and lesser machine one can practically think of...  %-7  By the
way, i'm sure Hewlett-Packard 200-LX (or any such pocket computer) owner
would be happy to know that he can browse the ~WEB~, send and receive an
~E-Mail~, read and post ~NG~s, access his prefered BBS, etc., etc.  All
this using only `MS-Kermit' as the main application...  Euh...  Well, i
mean all this but not send and receive ~E-Mails~ yet, since the function
is being deliberately disabled until further notice!...  :(

[...]

Well, now that i learned that professor Joe Doupnik essentially *IS* the
`MS-Kermit v3.16 Beta' team, euh...  I finally know which messages i'll
have to read more attentively.  :)  The author of this tip rendered me a
fine service:  from now on, it will help me in focusing on a few things;
or maybe the previous posts just helped in cutting the few trails (which
are still inexistant so far)...  %-o  Hummm...  Please, Pr. Doupnik.  I
wish you'll consider that i don't "demand" any new `MS-Kermit' feature
(like it's been suggested elsewhere), i'm simply making suggestions.

I'm open to related discussions (just not any diversion!).  You shouln't
have to worry that any eventual contact may have to take a bitter aspect
if you still believe in the usefullness of `MS-Kermit', as i do myself.

:)

[...]

Anyway, this has been a llllooonng reading for you all and this has been
quite much longer for me to type it, i garantee that!...  Time to go!...

Salutations,

Michel Samson